One of the October rituals of a New York Mets fan is taking a break from leaf-raking and planning Halloween costumes in order to decide who you’re going to root for in the World Series. Some years, there will be a team you can convince yourself to like and you root for them. Other years, there will be a team you don’t like and you can root against them. In many years, you are indifferent to both teams and so you remain indifferent to the outcome of the Series.
Only rarely do two teams you strongly dislike make it to the World Series. When this happens, you face a peculiar problem. As much as you’d like to remain indifferent, you can’t. There is no conceivable way in which a Mets fan can be indifferent to a Yankees-Phillies World Series. We are so used to responding positively to the failure of these teams, and so used to responding negatively to their successes, that we can’t just suddenly pull the plug on our emotions. The problem, obviously, is what are you supposed to do if a single event (say Howard hitting a homer off of Rivera) would simultaneously flood your neurons with happy chemicals and unhappy chemicals? You don’t want to explode and you can’t neutralize your emotions. To keep from exploding, you have to pick one of these two teams and root for it.
In the upcoming World Series, I am rooting for the Philadelphia Phillies to defeat the New York Yankees. Here is why.
Yankees fans right now are very happy about facing the arch-nemesis of the Mets. They see an opportunity to get us on their side, to unite the city behind their team. They think we will join them in celebrating the exploits of Derek Jeter and Alex Rodriguez. They think that when we see what this is like, we will realize that it is actually not so bad. Our hearts will melt, and since our own team has given us so much heartache lately, we might even consider, on the very edge of our consciousness, the possibility, dare one say it, of a change in loyalty, or a dividing of loyalty, in order to enjoy this sweet ambrosia of frequent winning. It’s not so bad to win, is it? Feels kind of nice, doesn’t it? There are some good players on that team in the Bronx …..
WAKE UP! Throw a pail of cold water over your head! Don’t fall asleep! Don’t ever do it! Don’t be replaced by the pods in the basement and always resist the seductive but specious arguments of the Dark One.
Mets fans! Remember that no matter how successful the Yankees become, the one thing we can always deprive them of is the right to claim that they have unified this city, that they are “New York’s team.” To this day, you will hear Yankees fans, their eyes misting with tears, remembering how the city came together behind the Yankees’ noble, doomed quest for a fifth consecutive World Championship in 2001. Mets fans know that this didn’t really happen. We weren’t very demonstrative about this, out of respect for what many Yankees fans had suffered in the attacks, but I am willing to tell the world that I know that in the New York metropolitan area, it wasn’t just my chips and dip table that got knocked over in exhilaration when Luis Gonzalez singled off of Mariano Rivera to drive Jay Bell home with the run that gave the Arizona Diamondbacks the 2001 World Championship.
Mets fans cannot root for the Yankees under any circumstances. It is as simple as that. I understand that Yankees fans feel morally superior to us because they can, on occasion, root for the Mets. The chutzpah is amazing but I’ve actually met Yankees fans who think they deserve credit for having rooted for the Mets in the 1986 Series. Still, everyone needs to understand that Mets fans can’t ever root for the Yankees because for us, the dynamic is so much more complicated. The Mets mean nothing to the Yankees. The Yankees mean a great deal to the Mets. We are the slighted younger brother. We are Cain and they are Abel. Hating them is central to who and what we are. Think of it, Mets fan. What will it feel like to you to hear them celebrating their 27th World Championship in this year of all years in Mets history? Would you rather hear them gloat or would you rather hear their anguish at being denied that to which they are so certain they are entitled?
The Phillies are just our division rivals. They are not wrapped around the tree trunk of our very existence as Mets fans. If we root for the Yankees, we may cease to exist. If we root for the Phillies, for this one series, it doesn’t make any difference. It’s not as if there is any chance of us becoming Phillies fans, in the way that there is always a chance that a Mets fan might become a Yankees fan. Sure, if the Phillies win, they will have bragging rights. But what do they have now, please? Are you worried that a second World Championship in a row will make the Phillies fans more obnoxious? Who would you rather see get more obnoxious, Phillies fans or Yankees fans? And hey, why shouldn’t these people be obnoxious? They’ve earned it. We just wish we could be this obnoxious to them. We’re resentful that we can’t be. When Phillies fans show up at Citi Field with their banners and their Championship shirts, I wish I could say something cutting and witty to them, but I can’t. I hang my head. I can’t find a good reason to hate the Phillies. I’m just mad because they beat us, dramatically, three times in a row. And I’m not going to start hating them because they treat the Mets with so much contempt and disdain. Why do Mets fans feel that they are the only ones allowed to treat the Mets with contempt and disdain?
It might even be fun for the Phillies to have won two World Championships in a row. There will certainly be no question, when the season starts, about the team to beat in the National League East. Even if the Phillies lose in four to the Yankees, there will still be no question about this. They are the team to beat. We are the underdogs. That will make victory more fun if we can beat them. Look, there’s nothing that can happen now that can hurt the Phillies in terms of their standing relative to the Mets. As we all know, there is nothing shameful about losing a World Series, unless of course you lose it, when you have a better team, to a hated crosstown rival to whom you are often compared. That can’t happen in this Series. One of these teams will emerge as the 2009 World Champion and the other will be a respected pennant winner.
Do it. Root for the Phillies. Sweeten the pot of our eventual triumph over them. Deny the Yankees. As much as we would like to, we can’t sit on the sidelines for this one. There is too much at stake and too much going on. Yes, this is a nightmare for Mets fans. But face it, some nightmares are worse than others. Oh, and if against everyone’s expectations, the Angels pull it out, and we have a Phillies-Angels World Series, root for the Angels.
For an excellent treatment of this same topic, check out the ever-reliable Faith and Fear in Flushing.
And if you haven’t submitted an entry yet in my Last Days of Shea mystery article contest, please see the post below.
Dana, you are a welcomed voice of reason, after having listened on WFAN on a mere hour drive to many Mets fans saying they will root for the Yankees! While I liken this forthcoming World Series to rooting for a winner in the Iran-Iraq War, you are on the money.
In 2001, I told my husband that I wasn’t rooting for either team in the WS, that I would just watch the games. After 9/11, I didn’t think that I could root against the Yankees. But when Gonzalez singled off Rivera and the winning run scored, I jumped up and yelled, “YEAH!” as my husband looked at me and asked what had happened to my neutrality. What can I say? Rooting against the Yanks was just instinctive.
But how do I root for the Phillies after the past few years? I don’t think I can do that either. I really think I’m just going to skip the WS this year. It’s just too painful. If I want pain, I’ll just root for the Jets.
Of course, as of now, it’s still Rally Monkey time – Let’s go Angels!!!
You will not be surprised to hear that I disagree with you. To be sure, asking who I “want” to win a Phillies-Yankees WS is essentially like saying I prefer getting kicked in the nuts rather than having them snagged on barbed wire. But I for one relish the fact that the Mets finally have a respectable rivalry with the geographically close Phillies. And (as one who works with lots of people from Philly) I can assure you that the amount of trash talking shit I’ve had to endure from the Brotherly Lovers vastly exceeds that leveled by Yankee fans. Plus, given that I despise the Eagles, Flyers, and 76ers with the passion of 1000 burning suns (yet ironically I’m a Penn fan – go figger) , and the fact that the Phillies, not the Yanks, have played a significant role in the Mets misfortunes, I would rather put on a Jeter jersey and sit in the Spankee Stadium right field bleachers than EVER EVER cheer on Utley, Rollins. Seeing Pedro return to form is like watching one’s spouse sleep with the IRS agent that audits you.
Finally in this rant, I must note that while I am not a Yankee fan (and indeed as a serious Orioles fan for nearly 20 years I have far more reason to loathe the Spanks than average Mets fans do), Mariano Rivera is a baseball god, and I am proud to state he’s one of my favorite players. He’s genuinely awe-inspiring. It would actually be a pleasure to watch him make the Phillies, and millions of Phillies fans, eat a giant helping of crow pie.
“Go Yankees” would be a bit much – a Yankees Phils series is a good excuse to catch up on my reading, some episodes of Mad Men, and a few hockey games. (In between watching the Jets torture me…again). But I wish the Yanks luck (in what I hope is a 7 game series for the love of the game). The phils have some fine players, but its a cold day in hell that I root for them after the last 3 seasons.
Dana,
Usually I agree with you, but while I respect your opinion and your argument, I cannot root for the Phillies..
I was praying for the Dodgers to humiliate Philly, but it was the other way around. A Torre-Yankee series would have been a lot of fun, and if that had happened, I would root for the Dodgers. If the Angels somehow win, then, like MetsMom, I would root for the Angels.
I think the reason why I cannot root for the Phillies, is that you hear trash talk from Yankees FANS, but not from the team. You don’t hear any of the Yankees ever trashing the Mets. However, the PHILLIES are the ones doing the trash talking. Even if they feel they are the better team, keep your mouth shut and show it on the field. IMHO it is unprofessional for professional athletes to trash talk each other unless we are talking about WWE wrestling.(and I am not sure if we can call them professional athletes). JD’s last sentence,”…but it’s a cold day in hell that I root for them after the last 3 seasons” sums it up nicely
My bro is a yankee fan n he roots for the Mets in big situations(ex: NLCS ‘06,against the phillies,etc) and he tells me to root for the Yankees this time cause its against our most hated divisional rival,when i told him no he said why,i told him “cause a yankee fan can root for the Mets on occasion,but think about it,we only have 2 titles,yall have 26,the dynamic of the whole thing is far greater through a Mets fan perspective than a yankee’s perspective”.No way int his world will I ever root for these 2 teams,this time im staying neutral,yeah i will watch the WS,but through a very bored persons point of view. Nonetheless,if the Phillies win,whatever its been 100+ years for them,doesn’t make a dfference,if the Yanks win,itll only make it more of a living hell when it comes to baseball in New York.(27-2…)CURSE THE EVIL EMPIRE! i thought our Mets cursed them when they took our title in the 2000 series…
Dana, here’s my thinking on why I’m rooting the way I am. Intense hatred for the Phillies will come and go (just like it did with the Braves). Intense hatred for the Yankees is forever. So if the World Series must finish (assuming it’s Yankees-Philly in the first place), and assuming it must have a winner declared, I’ll root for the Yankees not to win it all.
I want to apologize to those who have tried to post comments over the past two days. There was some kind of screwiness with my Word Press blog and that giving you some sort of installation screen. In any event, the problem has now been resolved.
Ok. but here’s my problem with your hypothesis. I happened to be in the Philadelphia TV market on the day they won. It was clear that Philly fans are rooting for the Yankees to be in the World Series because they think it will give them bragging rights not just over the Mets and Yankees, but over NEW YORK CITY. They think beating the Yankees will somehow prove to the world that Philly is as great a city as New York. Now I like Philly ok. There are some good restaurants and museums, but to even think it is in the same league as New York is just ridiculous. For that reason my hometown pride may get the better of me. I havent really decided, and actually may just sit it out, but I do love New York more than I hate the Yankees. It’s really a tough one.
Subie, I certainly love New York more than I hate the Yankees. In fact, I love New York even more than I love the Mets. And I also like the city of Philadelphia although I think that comparing New York to Philadelphia is like comparing London to Manchester. However genuinely cool it is, it can’t even begin to claim the kind of world status New York has. My feeling is that if someone in Philadelphia happens to believe that the Phillies beating the Yankees in the World Series proves that Philadelphia is as great a city as New York, why should I care about this? What difference does it make? It says nothing about the cities and it only says something about someone capable of thinking this. I stand by my original point. I don’t want the Yankees to represent New York. They won’t represent New York, as long as Mets fans refuse to allow it.
JD and Subie, you know I think that there is an interesting pattern here. The two of you seem to be from New Jersey and you come into contact with a lot of Phillies fans. I live in Connecticut and work on Long Island. The Phillies are invisible in these places and Phillies fans are non-existent. But Yankees fans are dominant in Connecticut and common although not dominant on Long Island. I wouldn’t be surprised if the choice of Yanks or Phils among Mets fans might vary significantly according to one’s distance from Philadelphia.
Dana, thanks for participating in this intervew about this very topic:
http://thefastertimes.com/mlb/2009/10/20/met-fans-face-their-worst-fear-a-phillies-yankees-world-series/
Excellent post. I remember 2001 vividly; disappointment in the Mets not making it far outweighed whatever the Yankee$ achieved, New York or not. (Nitpick: you’ve got 2001 as their potential fifth championship in a row–it was fourth.)
Dana: I think you’re right. If you don’t have to hear those stinkin’ Phillies fans (who truly truly truly hate the Mets) you may not feel the same way. The more I think about it, I just can’t root for the Phillies. However, I also realize that there is no way I can force myself to root for the Yankees. I’ll try to watch and not root, though that’s not particularly realistic either. Maybe I’ll just turn the channel and watch my second favorite sport – Top Chef!
To nitpick even further, 2001 would have been the Yank-these fourth ring in five years. Not fourth in a row
I am standing idly by on this – I have tried to discredit the Phils as much as I could. I can’t anymore – they are the real deal. The Yankees though are the one-trick pony this year. CC Sabathia will only get worse, how long will it be before AJ Burnett’s arm falls off, A-Rod and Johnny Damon stop juicing and the bloom will be off the rose of guys like Swisher? So why wouldn’t I theoretically get behind a concept like the Phils who have a lot of home growns and have not spent tons of $$ on their FAs who are great great role players this year. Think about it – being in NY, we’ll hear about a 27th ring all winter. Philly will just be occupied for as long until the Eagles play again. I’m not rooting for anyone though and not watching any games.
Dana, I’ve only lived in NJ since 2005 (and I live in Essex County so its pretty much all . I grew up in Brooklyn, and other than detours to upstate NY for undergrad and Philadelphia for law school, and 1 year in Princeton, lived in NYC my entire life. So while my perspective on this is informed by living in Philly for 3 years (and doing a great deal of work in that city, traveling their frequently (sometimes daily), it isn’t the sole determinant.
I think a big problem the Mets fan base has is not really the fact that the Yankees are more successful than the Mets. That’s certainly part of it, but its only one part, because the Yankees have played almost no role in the Mets’ successes and failures through the years. Rather, I think the problem is deeper – which I have (often ad nauseum) characterized as an “identity crisis.”
The Yankees have a clear identity. It may be one that is reviled by many other sports fans, but is is distinct, it has deep roots in history, it plays a role in American pop culture that is significant nationally and (to a degree) internationally.
Moreover, much of what larger society hates about the Yankees (and Yankees fans) mirrors what they hate about NYC. Too big, too rich, too ethnic, too obnoxious, too rude, too successful, too important, too dominant.
The Mets whole existence, in contrast, is a study in identity crisis. The Mets identity crisis is itself deep rooted. The team’s very existence is a function of the fact that two other teams left town – - two teams who (and whose fans) hated each other. The team’s logo, uniform designs, colors, etc., are a confused mix of the Dodgers and Giants, combined with a “New York Not-The-Yankees” to boot.
And the Wilpons have exacerbated matters by building a stadium whose very design, and principal symbolic features channel two other teams. He may try to remedy it with various window dressing aspects (photos, museum, etc.) but he showed his cards right at the outset – - the owner’s first love is a team that left – not the team he has. I suspect if Wilpon could trade the Mets for the Dodgers and keep the latters naming rights if he brought them to NY he’d do so in a heartbeat.
I suspect that its this identity crisis – this lack of confidence, this “also ran consolation prize” that is the driver of the false “competition” with the Yankees. It is driven more by the fact that the Mets have rooted their identity crisis in the ghosts of the departed more so than any serious issues with the Yankees.
That isn’t to say the Yankees are just an afterthought. Of course not. The Yankees raise strong feelings in everyone – and many older Mets fans do not like them because they recall that the Yankees in the 1950s and 1960s were a reactionary, somewhat racist organization taking pride in the fact that their successes did not reflect a “need” for minority players. That said, I’d argue that most of that bad will probably burned out (and doesn’t stamp the Yankees identity the way it did the Red Sox for years) by about 1976.
I see the remedy to this as losing the obsession and passion for the Yankees. Because at a certain level Mets fans obsession and passion for what the Yankees are doing (or not doing) and whether they fail (or succeed) ultimately results in Mets fans becoming – without realizing it – de facto passionate “fans” of the Yankees. They follow them closely, often know their history and stats better than Yankee bandwagoners, and experience inordinate emotion (pro and con) when they win or lose.
When Mets fans display such inordinate emotion to the Yankees to a level that it exceeds what they feel about a division rival, particularly one whose players classlessy call the Mets “chokers”, and many of whose fans want the Yankees to lose because they loathe New York, I think its a real problem. One guy’s opinion.
Finally, and most critically, although I am not a Yankee fan, I without hesitation attest to being a Mariano Rivera fan. He’s jaw droppingly awesome. As a fan of the GAME first and foremost, I don’t have much choice in the matter. (If he mows down the Mets, I just sadly tip my cap.) Seeing him K Victorino or Rollins or Utley would be great. (Though I prefer that it occurs in the 7th game of a WS in the 9th inning.)
I love the Met’s and they tried this yr..not as hard as they could’ve but hey ..not every yr can be a great one…So since I am not a Yankee fan at all…Phillie’s is who I am rooting for and I do like Chase U. he is a great player and proved it so far in this game alone…
JD, My hatred of the Yankees is still summed up by what I wrote in Yankee Hatred, the essay in my book, Mets Fan, which is available online at http://www.metsfanbook.com/YankeeHatred.html
For me it all has to do with the way the team is run and the way in which winning is expected and not hoped for. I have no identification at all with the often ignorant and sometimes jaw-droppingly bigoted anti-New York sentiment that fans from other cities will sometimes direct towards the Yankees. In fact, a significant part of my antipathy towards the Yankees has to do with the fact that the Yankees organization is one of the very few things about New York that may fit the stereotype others have about the city. In my experience, New Yorkers are no more rude, obnoxious, and arrogant than people anywhere else. I have found them, in general, to have a tolerance of and curiosity about the differences of others that I do not find to be as common in most of the other places I’ve been. I oppose anti-New York prejudice with everything I have. And I am ticked off at the Yankees for feeding into it in ways that the city itself does not deserve.
The thing is though that the Phillies and many of their fans not only hate New York, they hate the Mets. They will get greater pleasure beating the Yankees because they see that as really really really killing Mets fans. Their hatred of NY doesnt derive from resentment of the Yankees. It derives from resentment of the METS.
Dana, yes, your wonderfully written essay was what actually led to the first of our many exchanges on this topic. (And I deeply apologize for that, and take comfort in knowing that the statute of limitations has run on the tort lawsuit for harassment you most certainly should level at me.
)
I of course recognize that you don’t identify with the anti-NY attitude displayed by fans outside the city, and obviously Mets fans issues with Yankees (or Yankees fans) has nothing to do with the Yankees being seen as symbolic of New York.
I don’t quite understand your complaints about how the team is run. This isn’t the 1950s where the Yankees used KC as a de facto farm team. When Steinbrenner bought it the team was a mess. And other markets (like LA) in theory should be able to check and even exceed the Yankees dominance.
The Yankees spend the most money because they make the most money. They do so because they are very very savvy at business and (somewhat to the chagrin of some of their limited partners) plow a ton of revenue back into the team (although some estimate that the Yankees actually have to spend less of their gross revenues as a % on talent than other teams do, even though that % is still a very big number). Their ability to print money comes in part from inherent advantages in being an old team based in a media capital (thus some players will come there because baseball tends to be regional unlike football, but NYC offers a better oppty for national endorsements), but also reflects the fact that they were WAY ahead of the curve of everyone in establishing a proprietary regional television network. They took a chance, got a head start.
Also, how can you blame them? Their attendance numbers and TV figures are off the charts. Its fine to be nostalgic and share great stories about the Grant’s Tomb era (I certainly have them) but no one wants to return to that state of affairs, or anything close to it. People don’t want to expect a WS every year, but they do have a legitimate expectation that the Mets will be in serious contention for a post-season berth more often than not. (On that score, other than this year, they’ve done OK in that regard since 2005. Whether there are bigger structural issues that will send them back to the doldrums of 2002-2004 remains to be seen).
Rhetorically they may claim “winning is expected” but that really is more rhetoric especially now that George is out of the picture. Most analysts believe that in 2008 they took a calculated risk at not making the post season by not trading for Santana.
Governor Patterson was on WFAN this morning. He’s a diehard Met fan (and very knowledgable about baseball – probably lining himself for a second career) but is pulling for the Yankees. Now, of course as NYS Gov he can’t root for the Phillies, but he didn’t give the usual babble. He explained it as follows (which I find interesting)
1. When the Phillies beat Tampa Bay last year, you heard little from Philly about TB. They didn’t care. All they cared about was beating the Mets.
2. Interleague play reduces affiliation with NL vs AL. Patterson said 20 years ago he would have probably pulled for Philly because he prefers the NL but interleague has messed that all up.
Finally, there is a measure of the company one keeps. If I were to root for Philly, I’d be sticking my head in the sand about the fact that a huge aspect of Philly sports life (and life in that city generally) concerns big issues they have with NYC and New Yorkers that just ain’t there with the Yankees. I have experienced this personally and professionally, much as I like the town. (Candidly, I have some issues with Baltimore in these regards as well and creates conflict for me as an Orioles fan, but I can navigate it easier because Baltimore focuses on DC more than NYC, and I have strong family ties there (through blood and marriage) that mitigate it.)
At the end of the day, as obnoxious and arrogant as a lot of Yankee fans are, I know that they don’t lord their alleged supremacy over Mets or Mets fans as anything more than a fun, playful tweak (there are of course outlier exceptions). It is much edgier with Philly (especially once you leave the NJ border.
I have plenty of friends who are fans of the Phillies, some who live here, some who live in PA, and we have a great time at the games. But the larger dynamic is very different – root actively for Philly and it entails accepting the fact that a very significant portion of the fan base there has issues with this city and region (more so than Boston, which, unlike Philly, in many ways has more of a superiority than inferiority complex to NYC outside of baseball).
All that said, Cliff Lee’s performance last night was one for the ages. I tip my cap.
I never even thought about rooting for the Yankees. Never. Ever. EVER. I’d rather root for nuclear war, Satan’s everlasting reign, and Omar Minaya and Jerry Manuel to remain at the helm of the Mets forever *snicker.*
Sorry, I’d have to disagree with you. First of all I think it’s good sportsmanship to root for the other home town team. As a Jets and Mets fan you can feel a deep rooted rivalry in New York. But I still root for the Giants and the Yankees as long as their not playing my teams. Plus my parents are both from the Bronx and grew up Yankee fans, so hey, why not! I don’t have the Mets to root for (as usual) so I’ll root for New York. I can’t root for Philly!